What people and events led Paul Newby to become the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of North Carolina? What historical evidence originally led him to become a Christian, and how does he uniquely practice his faith as a Chief Justice? And what advice would he give to young Christians who want to serve God through the law? We had the unique opportunity to talk with Chief Paul Newby to hear him address these questions, and more, as well as talk about his personal journey to faith.


Paul Martin Newby is the 30th Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of North Carolina. In addition to his service on the Court, Chief Justice Newby is an adjunct professor at Campbell University School of Law, where he teaches courses on state constitutional law and appellate practice. He is the co-author of The North Carolina State Constitution with History and Commentary (2nd ed. 2013) with Professor John V. Orth of the University of North Carolina School of Law. And he is a father, husband, elder, and Sunday School teacher.



Episode Transcript

Sean: What historical evidences led the Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court to faith? How can he help us think biblically about law, justice, and some of the other current issues we're facing today? Our guest today is Chief Justice Paul Newby from the North Carolina Supreme Court. I'm Sean McDowell.

Scott: And I'm Scott Rae.

Sean: And this is the Think Biblically podcast brought to you from Talbot School of Theology. Chief Justice Newby, from the time we met a few months ago in North Carolina, I have been so eager to have you on. So thanks, amidst all you're doing as a professor as well, for joining us to talk about these issues.

Chief Justice Newby: I'm delighted and honored to be with you.

Sean: Well, let's just jump right in with some of your story. I'm curious, and this could be a two-hour conversation in itself, but maybe give us some of the highlights of the key people or steps in your life that led you to becoming the Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court.

Chief Justice Newby: Well, you know, I grew up in North Carolina. A little town, Jamestown, about 1,200 people when I was growing up. Mom was a school teacher, dad an hourly worker. I had no idea that one day I would end up being on the Supreme Court, much less being the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Truly, as I look back, I see God's hand throughout. But, you know, I would say the two most important aspects of my ultimately becoming the Chief Justice would be my commitment to Christrealizing that it was an all-or-nothing deal, and saying I was all inand then, God led me to my wife of more than 41 years, Macon. We met in law school. Yes, those of you that doubt anything good can come out of the University of North Carolina, I would tend to say, well, you haven't met my wife yet. So anyway, those two things are the most important aspect. I ran in 2004. I practiced law for 25 years. I was practicing 1 Timothy 2, praying for those in authority. I had a sense in my heart that God was saying that maybe I should run. My response was, "Here I am, Lord, send somebody else. This is crazy. I mean, you know, Newbys have been in North Carolina since 1700, but they've never done anything. And, you know, it was non-partisan, so Scooby-Dooby vote for Newby. Is that what we were going to do?

[laughter]

Chief Justice Newby: But anyway, we, you know, Macon and I prayed about it. We decided that's what I should do. And by God's grace, I won. Theyre 8-year terms. Won a second election. By God's grace in 2021, that third election for me. So that was a specific election for the Chief Justice. So I have an 8-year term, and I've just completed my first four years, or right at four years in that term.

Scott: You suggested that becoming a follower of Christ was one of the things that was influential in you becoming the Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court. But did you grow up in a Christian home? And if not, then what led you to become a follower of Christ?

Chief Justice Newby: Well, yeah, I grew up in a Christian home. But as we all know, there are no grandchildren in Christ. We all have to make that commitment. And my parents were godly people. They set amazing examples for me. And, you know, I prayed the prayer when I was younger. I believe I was sincere. But I went through some prodigal times. And particularly, when I was a freshman at my undergraduate school at Duke, I had a professor who basically said that all the Bible stories I had believed growing up were just nice parables, but just teaching stories. That's all they were. They were not true. And so it really shook my foundations. I was not equipped. I had graduated from a small high school to go to a major university and have somebody challenge me in that way. So for about six years, I really wandered in a desert, searching in a lot of places. You know, what do we all want? We want peace, we want satisfaction, we want a sense of purpose and meaning. And I looked for those things, and they just weren't there. And frankly, Sean, as I've mentioned to you, in July of 1979, I was actually working between my second and third year of law school. I met your dad at Pagosa Springs, Colorado, of all places. And he gave me a book that was fresh off the presses called More Than a Carpenter, and did a weekend little seminar or two-day seminaror three days, I can't remember how long he was thereon the evidences of Christ. And he challenged me, because I talked to him about my doubts. I talked to him about my questions. And he challenged me to use my legal training to explore the claims of Christ. And certainly, I read the book. It was instrumental in my reassessment of my child faith to a mature understanding of Scripture. So, that was really an instrumental part of my ultimate decision to be all in with Christ. So, you know, I'm grateful to you, your dad. I give every one of my interns and law clerks a copy of that book, and I write what I just told you in the cover of it.

Sean: Wow!

Scott: Thats great.

Chief Justice Newby: And challenge them to use it in their legal training. You know, just yesterday I was talking with a group, and I asked, "Who here believes that Julius Caesar lived?" And of course they all raised their hands. I said, "Okay, that's great. Who has seen Julius Caesar?" Well, of course, none of them have seen Julius. Well, how do we know he existed? Well, it's historical evidence. How do we assess historical evidence? What type of reliability are we looking for? What world circumstances would help us evaluate what historical evidence might be there to prove the existence of Julius Caesar? And if we really delve into it, we will understand that there's more historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus than for the existence of Julius Caesar. Just even thinking about it that way was something I had never done until I read your dad's book.

Sean: That's amazing. What an incredible story. I appreciate you taking the time to share that. And you did take your legal training and apply it to the historical Jesus. So, I've heard different detectives and lawyers answer this question differently. I'm curious where you would stand in terms of how you think the historical resurrection of Jesus would fare if it was actually put on trial in the U.S. court of law? What do you think?

Chief Justice Newby: Believe it or not, I've done this.

Sean: Okay!

Chief Justice Newby: So, one of the things as I plugged into my church early on, I worked with youth for over 30 years. And so, I developed a script, "The Trial of the Empty Tomb." And I poured through the gospels. I divided them into the various roles that are described in the gospels. People had to stay in character. They could only testify as to the things that they had actually seen. Things that they had heard were subject to hearsay objections. So we did the trial of the resurrection. And I did it with multiple youth groups, including a person on the other side, an attorney on the other side, to contest whether the witnesses were speaking out of personal experience, eyewitness accounts, that type of thing, including their past that would go to their reputation for truth and integrity. Peter, for example, having denied Jesus. Mary Magdalene and her seven demons. So, we've done it from that perspective. And certainly, the eyewitness accounts are just so amazing. And as an attorney, a practicing attorney25 years of justice nowfor 20 years, the fact that the gospels have different snapshots or different facets of the statements of the different witnesses proves their reliability, does not undermine it. If you had four accounts with everybody saying the same thing, you know there was collusion, and the veracity is undermined. But when you have different emphasis圩or example, if the three of us were to observe something, an event, more than likely, we would describe it in different ways. That's just the way God made us. And that doesn't mean any of us are untruthful. It doesn't mean that we're inaccurate. It simply means that through our perceptions, God's given us different ways to view things. So anyway, long story to say, you know, I look at the empty tomb. To me, when I go through periods of doubt or questioning, I go back to that, because all the power of Rome, all the power of the Jewish folks who were in charge, all they had to do was produce one body. One body, and Christianity is nipped in the bud. And they couldn't do it. Why couldn't they do it? It's a small geographic area, a small community. You have eyewitness accounts of where the body was supposed to be. That's just so compelling. But then, as I have grown in my faith and continue to teach, I've better understood history. And I just taught the end of the book of Daniel. And I was not looking forward to it, because there's so much there I don't understand. But the more history I read, the more I marvel at the prophecies to predictions. And then you go back to the specific Messianic propheciesand I love this, I use it all the time from your dad's bookif you just take a limited number of the prophecies, and one person to fulfill that would be匈 forget the number, Sean, you'll have to remind me, but like, one times 10 to the 17th power or something.

Sean: That's right.

Chief Justice Newby: One times 10 to the 17th power. And it's like taking a blind man and sticking him in the state of Texas and filling it full of silver dollars up to your knees, marking one with an X. The silver dollars cover all of the state of Texas. And you let him wander around for days, and you reach down, and he picks up a silver dollar. My goodness, he's picked up the one with the X on it. It just doesn't happen. I'm sorry. The odds are just too great against there being a random person to fulfill the prophecies. You look at the changed lives of the people in Scripture. The veracity of Scripture匈 mean, if I were trying to do a puff piece, there's no way I would have written Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. They portray the disciples, these leaders of this new religion, as cowards, as people who would call down God's curses on innocent people, they're emotional, they're jealous of one another. That's not what you would look for if this were an attempt to just sell a bill of goods to somebody. But you see the changed lives. You see a guy like Peter who goes from coward to leader. You see a guy like Paul who is killing people, persecuting, and yet becomes a martyr for his faith. And all these guys, except for John, died martyrs' deaths. And all they had to do was say, sorry, guys, made it up. Just kidding. And they would have been lauded by the Jews and Rome as being heroes, and probably died very wealthy people. But none of them did. That is certainly proof of the truth of the biblical account. And then my life. I know what I was before. I knew I was looking for love in all the wrong places, acceptance, and all these things I tried to dig out on my own. Money and power. And I looked at all my friends that were looking in the same places that I was, and we were empty. And then, to have given my life to Christ and see the change there, hopefully it has enabled me to look with others with grace and mercy the way my Savior has looked at me. So, I look at all those proofs that are so well articulated in your book, and I am thankful to God.

Scott: Now, Paul, you've been on the bench for 20 years, practiced law for a couple of decades.

Chief Justice Newby: 25.

Scott: 25. What are some of the unique challenges that you found to being a Christian and being the Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court? What are some of those challenges that you've had to confront?

Chief Justice Newby: I speak a lot of Christian legal societies at the various law schools in North Carolina. And I always tell young people that you should humbly but firmly stand by your faith. And when you do that, you will be held to a higher standard. But guess what? We need to be held to a higher standard. Integrity in all parts of our lives, in following the law, in treating others the way that we would like to be treated, in exercising grace and mercy, and yes, being zealots, advocates, as we're called to be. But to recognize that obedience is ours. Outcomes belong to God. We always play by the rules. There's no reason not to be rule followers, because we believe that the system is set up to ultimately determine truth, objective truthwhat actually happenedand to apply the law fairly and partially to every case. That's called the rule of law. Everybody treated the same, rich, poor, powerful, not powerful. Lady Justice is blindfolded for a reason. So, you know, for me地nd I'm an old guy now, so, you know, I don't have to worry about, are they going to make me a partner in the law firm? I don't have to. You know, I did have to, early on. A friend of mine宇his was in 2005. I hadn't been elected very long, and I'd just taken my place on the court. The guy came to me, and he meant it well, okay? He said, "Hey, look, we think you seem to be a decent guy. You know, you probably could have a long career up here if you wanted to. But we just really think that you need to tone down your Christianity."

Sean: Wow.

Chief Justice Newby: And, you know, he meant it well, but I knew Who put me there. I mean, I'm a nobody. How does a nobody end up on the Supreme Court? I mean, it's by God's will. God put me there, and anytime I tried to grab onto something尖ou know, when you're a kid, you grab something that's not yours, you get your hand smacked a little bit. I don't want God smacking my hand, okay? [laughs] God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So, if I accept a position with my hands palm up, not grabbing, but palm up, "Lord, You placed it in here. Lord, You take it out in Your time. I can't do it without You. I can only do it with You when You're ready for me to be done. Take it away." And so, you know, he meant well, but I knew that I had to be faithful and obedient to the Lord. And as humanly as best I could as a human, I have tried to follow that. And yeah, I get challenged from time to time. You know, in the past, people say, Oh, so you're somebody who prays for wisdom. You know, an atheist might challenge me with that. And I'd say, "Well, look, if you don't believe in God, do you think it's a bad thing for a judge to humble themselves and at least try to have wisdom beyond their own self? And if you don't believe in God, does it really hurt you for me to say a prayer that you think is just bouncing off the ceiling? Well, what if I'm right? What if there is a God? Isn't it a good thing that I would seek wisdom from the God of the universe? So, you know, you get the challenges, you try to love, you try to love everybody. I mean, you know, the judicial branch should not be a political branch. I've done everything I can as a Justice and now as Chief Justice to separate us from those challenges. We're supposed to decide the case before us. But in our modern world, there has been more and more a merger of political issues into legal issues. And so, you know, to love my colleagues that I may disagree with vehemently, to try to understand when I can be an encourager of people in their faith journeys, and when I just need to be a listener, those are challenges that each of us as a believer has to try to figure out that pathway on our own.

Sean: Paul, you were born and raised in North Carolina, in the South, in 1955. My mom lived up and down the East Coast, but was in the South for a period, also in the 50s. So, I'd love to hear, just, any memories or experiences you had of the racial tension of that time, and how it's just shaped and informed the way you lead the North Carolina Supreme Court today.

Chief Justice Newby: So, yeah, I was very blessed. So, my dad's side of the family were Quakers, and my mom's side were what were called Wesleyan Methodists. Both were anti-slavery, and for a long, long time. Matter of fact, my dad's family as Quakers participated in the Underground Railroad and that type of thing.

Sean: Wow.

Chief Justice Newby: So, you know, I was blessed. My parents raised me that God made all people, that we were all equal. So, when I read the Declaration of Independence, that We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and oh, by the way, in North Carolina, we added to that that everybody's entitled to fruits of their own labor, recognizing, I believe, the dignity of all life. You know, these concepts宇o me, all means all. And skin pigmentation means nothing. And particularly when my family and I went to, I think it was one of the creation museumsmaybe it was at the Ark Encounterthat said, you know, there's one race. It's the human race. We may have different skin colors, but there's just one race. My experiences growing up存o I can remember that I went to a department store in Greensboro with my family, and there were two water fountains. And this was curious to me. There was a line at one water fountain, and not at the other. So I went to the other water fountain. I mean, I was a pretty smart kid. You know, I was probably, I don't know, four or five years old. And I remember getting called out by people, and I didn't understand it. So I talked to my parents, and they just said that you need to ignore people like that, and that for whatever reason, that store had one for blacks and one for whites. And, you know, that it was a shame that it was that way. So, I remember that. I remember the black men and women that I would encounter, just in my routine life. My mom was a school teacher. The janitor at school was a black man. He was a great guy, loved him. And, you know, just to see the way my parents interacted with the blacks with whom they worked impacted me. We integrated when I was in the sixth grade. We had two of the sweetest young ladies come. There could not have been better folks for us to experience integration with. Everybody except one person. There was only one [white] person that got out of line, and she got corrected sternly by her classmates, so that was good. And then, we had a bunch of feeder elementary schools. We all went to junior high and, you know, junior high, senior high. For whatever reasonagain, we were a rural areaa lot of these guys had worked together, priming tobacco, or working in strawberry patches or working on farms. And we played football and basketball together. So, you know, to me, it was as good a process as could have happened. And certainly the same thing when I got to do. So, you know, to me, the whole idea is, treat everybody the same. Everybody the same. I think that's God's justice, frankly, but I also believe that that's the way that God would have us. And when I read Scripture, you know, there's a lot of emphasis on the alien, on the fatherless, but again and again, it comes back to treat everybody the same. The guilty get punished, the innocent are to be acquitted, equal justice for everybody. So, when I read in our state constitution that says the court shall be open, and justice will be administered without favor, denial, ordelay, of course, without favor, of course, without denial. And when I read the preamble to our state constitution, written in 1868, 20% of the delegates were freed African Americans. 20% had come from the North. But before they put into place our Declaration of Rights or our structure of government, the preamble of the state constitution says this, "We, the people of the state of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for the preservation of the American Union and the existence of our civil, political and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those blessings to us and our posterity." You know, I just look at the opportunities I have as Chief Justice to bring us together, and particularly at the foot of the cross. And, you know, in North Carolina, we are as racially diverse as anywhere you want to find. And I do a prayer breakfast voluntarily before different conferences. No state funds are used. And I have leaders that are multiracial, because the crowd is level at the foot of the cross. We are all sinners saved by grace. And once we get to see in each other's hearts for the love of God, and to love others as we love ourselves, that brings a brotherhood and a sisterhood that otherwise would not occur. So, you know, I thank you for that question. But I think that hopefully explains some of my views on this.

Scott: Paul, you're 25 years on the bench. How has the nature of the cases changed in this time?

Chief Justice Newby: Yeah, so, 20 years在ut I do see more and more attempts to politicize the court system. Okay, three branches of government. Who makes policy? Who makes the laws? Okay, that's the legislative. Who executes? That's the executive. What's the judicial branch? We're supposed to interpret and apply the constitutions, state and federal. Everybody has their own state constitution. Of course, we have one federal Constitution. And let me just say that those two constitutions are very different, and they have different legal tests. And I'll get back to that in just a minute. The judicial branch is also to simply decide the cases that are before it. But, folks, nobody died and made a judge king. Nobody anointed judges to be the arbiters of society in the sense of policy questions. So, you know, one of the big challenges that seems to be increasing is an attempt to get the court to weigh in and decide things that need to be debated and decided by the legislature. The federal Constitution, limited grant of power. The state constitution is a limitation on power. What do I mean by that? So, the federal Constitution, limited grant of power. The first question in a federal court is, why is this a federal issue? Under what constitutional or statutory or regulatory provision in the federal code causes this case to be in federal court? On the other hand, the general courts of justice are in the state. And in North Carolina, the General Assembly is given plenary power. That means any power that is reserved by the people has been given by them to the General Assembly to act in their place. It's a republic. And so the test under our state constitution is, it has to be unconstitutional beyond a reasonable doubt. Why? Because when we say the General Assembly has violated the constitution, we are in effect saying the people have violated the constitution. And so that task is to be taken with great humility. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest burden of proof to show that an act of the General Assembly violated an express provision of the constitution. Now, every state's got its own constitution, and every state has its own jurisprudence that determines how those constitutions are to be evaluated. But I'm just telling you what our experience is in North Carolina. So, I have worked very hard. The judicial branch judges do a great job when we stay in our lane. When we get out of our lane and start getting into the legislative or executive lanes, it affects the checks and balances that our framers so wisely put into our various constitutions.

Sean: That's really helpful. I've seen that play out on the federal scale. So, it's interesting to see how much of a dynamic it is at the state level too. Final question for you. At 51蹤獲, we've got a lot of studentsand even at Talbot, at times, in our theology departmentgrad students that are going into different professions and working in the law in a range of different ways. And even our audience here goes far beyond our immediate 51蹤獲 students. I'm just curious, what advice would you give to aspiring young Christian lawyers or judges? Things to avoid, positive steps to take, or really anybody engaging the law, just to live out their faith with boldness and influence?

Chief Justice Newby: I would say that time in the morning with Godand maybe in the evening for you, but for me, it's the first thing in the morningthat is vital to my being right in the center of what God would have me do that day. It's so easy to want to put it on autopilot. We can't do that. Every day, I need to be sure that the instruments of life are properly calibrated. I tell everybody I used to be young and fun, and at one point I had a pilot's license. I was flying in and out of Asheville, the mountains. I would be a fool to get in an airplane and not calibrate my instruments based on barometric pressure that day. I'd be smashing into mountains left and right. How much more important is it to calibrate our lives every day? The whole idea is emptying me of self, filling me with the Holy Spirit. The whole idea is, God, You know the challenges I will face today. I do not. I can't handle them. Obedience is mine, but outcomes belong to You. I need to be sure that I have evaluated what my agenda may be for today, and I have put it at Your altar and said, "Not my will, but Yours be done." Pouring through Scripture, particularly if you're interestedand I tell young peoplein law school and they want to understand justice, read through the Proverbs and ask the question, "What is God telling us about His view of justice here?" Proverbs 2 in particular, I think it's verse 11 that says, "Then you will understand what is just and right and fair, every good path." Okay, do I need to understand what's just and right and fair? Yeah. I mean that's justice. All right, well guess what? When there's a then, there were a whole bunch of ifs before. Well, what are the ifs? Well, it says that I am to, you know, as Jesus would later say in the Beatitudes, I am to hunger and thirst for righteousness. I'm to dig through his Word, looking for His wisdom as for hidden treasure. You know, to be sure that I am fervently seeking to better understand Him and grow in my relationship with Him. And on days that I'm dryand there are days that I'm drytell Him. He's not going to be shocked. He's not going to be, "Oh my goodness, look at Paul today. He's dry." No, He knows already. And who is it that makes me hunger and thirst for Him anyway? It's Him. So, you know, we can be completely candid, and we think about the privilege we have. The privilege. Now, you know, I get to meet Supreme Court Justices, U.S. Supreme Court Justices, and other leaders of our country. You know, how much greater is it to daily meet the God of the universe and spend time with Him all day as He walks with us through that day? What a privilege that is. My wife recently was the chairwoman of the Billy Graham Statuary Committee, and his statue just got placed in the U.S. Capitol as one of North Carolina's favorite sons. You know, as Billy Graham said when he received an award, he said, "All that I am or have ever been, I owe to my Savior, Jesus Christ. When you honor me, you are in effect honoring Him." Boy, that's what I want. I want, you know地nd I know in the middle of a political world, there's a lot of folks who may disagree with me and don't share my worldview. But wow, if they can say, well, you know, he treated me with dignity and respect and kindness. He showed God's love in his life. Wouldn't that be Well done, good and faithful servant? I pray so.

Sean: Chief Justice Paul Newby, this has been such a treat. Thank you for taking the time. Thanks for your clarity. Thanks for your boldness to live out and speak your faith. Maybe someday we could have you on campus here at 51蹤獲 in Southern California. It's a long ways from North Carolina, but that would be an absolute treat. And folks would love you here. So, thanks so much. It was great to meet you in person. And keep up the good work. If we can ever do anything here for you, certainly let us know. So thanks for coming on.

Chief Justice Newby: Well, thank you, and thank you all for your faithful ministry. And I'm just delighted to be co-ambassadors with you all for the greatest kingdom in the universe.

Sean: Amen. This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture. This podcast is brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at 51蹤獲, where Scott and I both teach. We have programs online and in person in apologetics and spiritual formation. And we have fully online bachelors in Bible, theology, and more. Check out our website. We would love to have you join us. To submit comments or ask questions, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. We address some of those questions each week in our weekly Cultural Update. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please give us a rating on your podcast app and consider sharing it with a friend. Thanks for listening and we will see you Friday for our weekly Cultural Update. In the meantime, remember to think biblically about everything.